Preview Mode Links will not work in preview mode

Hacks & Wonks

Jun 6, 2023

On this Tuesday topical show, Crystal welcomes Bryce Yadon and Marcella Buser from Futurewise to talk about the For Our Future campaign’s success in passing middle housing and climate planning bills during the 2023 legislative session. Bryce and Marcella share how organizing a broad statewide coalition and sustained efforts by key legislators finally pushed middle housing across the finish line, then delve into the details of implementation, rulemaking, and why the policy appeals to so many. 

The conversation continues with diagnosing why a transit-oriented development bill had trouble moving forward and describing what impacts the climate planning bill will have in our communities. Finally, Marcella and Bryce encourage interested folks to get involved and help Futurewise tackle continued action and future legislation around land use in Washington state.

As always, a full text transcript of the show is available below and at

Follow us on Twitter at @HacksWonks. Find the host, Crystal Fincher, on Twitter at @finchfrii, find Futurewise at @FuturewiseWA, find Bryce Yadon at @BAYadon, and find Marcella Buser at @marcymarce98.


Bryce Yadon

Bryce started working with Futurewise and as a lobbyist in December of 2014. He has a BA from Seattle University in Political Science and a Masters from Middlesex University in Environmental Sustainable Management. He is a contract lobbyist who works on issues related to land use, housing, and transportation representing and working with a broad range of organizations, advocates, and businesses.

Marcella Buser

Marcella Buser is Futurewise’s State Organizer and has been organizing for the past 5 years in Oregon and Washington. She’s organized thousands of volunteers around efforts to pass missing middle housing and climate planning in the GMA in Washington, and other environmental and public health policies in the Northwest. She grew up in rural Oregon on her parents’ apple farm and in her free time you can find her gardening, cooking, and enjoying live music.



2023 Legislative Wrap-Up!” from Futurewise


Missing Middle Housing One-Pager | Futurewise


Climate-Resilient Growth One-Pager | Futurewise


Transit-Oriented Development One-Pager | Futurewise


Four Vital Housing and Climate Bills Survive the Washington Legislature” by Ray Dubicki from The Urbanist



[00:00:00] Crystal Fincher: Welcome to Hacks & Wonks. I'm Crystal Fincher, and I'm a political consultant and your host. On this show, we talk with policy wonks and political hacks to gather insight into local politics and policy in Washington state through the lens of those doing the work with behind-the-scenes perspectives on what's happening, why it's happening, and what you can do about it. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the full versions of our Friday almost-live shows and our midweek show delivered to your podcast feed. If you like us, the most helpful thing you can do is leave a review wherever you listen to Hacks & Wonks. Full transcripts and resources referenced in the show are always available at and in our episode notes.

I am excited to be welcoming two folks from Futurewise - Bryce Yadon and Marcella Buser - here to talk about the work that Futurewise and others did on land use and policy bills during the legislature and in general - trying to help our community serve the people who live in it better. So just starting out - starting with Marcella - what brought you to this work and why is it so important?

[00:01:18] Marcella Buser: Thanks for having me on, Crystal. I think what brought me to organizing and what brought me to Futurewise are two different things. I got involved in organizing back in college. I grew up on a farm, so I had never been canvassed before. I really didn't know that activism and organizing were a thing, but I grew up caring a lot about the environment, and sustainable agriculture, and everything related to growing up on a farm. So it wasn't until I was in college that I had my first experiences with organizing and learned that protests don't just happen out of serendipity, but there's a lot of planning and organizing that goes behind it. So I really fell in love with organizing and I thought it was so cool that I could be a part of making my voice heard and passing bills. I was still a teenager at the time - you didn't have to be an expert on the issue and I thought that was awesome. So I absolutely fell in love with organizing, took it on as my career and I've been doing that for the past five years, working on a variety of issues. And really the thing that keeps me so engaged in organizing is knowing that there are still thousands of people out there that, like me, really cared about these issues but have no idea that they can be a part of the solution.

And then with Futurewise - I'm relatively new to the team - I just joined last fall, but I absolutely love it. Growing up, again, on a farm - I always saw cities as these expensive, polluted, scary places. Density was a bad word to me. And it wasn't until I moved to Seattle and started working with Futurewise that I learned - really, if we want to be protecting our farms and our forests and our green spaces, having these dense cities is the solution. This is the way to protect our world. And when you're building cities well, they can be equitable and affordable and environmentally friendly. So I absolutely love still learning more about urban planning and land use - and organizing on these issues.

[00:03:27] Crystal Fincher: Excellent. And what about you, Bryce?

[00:03:29] Bryce Yadon: Thanks for having us on and letting us join. I got my start in Olympia in 2006 - I believe, was my first legislative session, if I'm remembering correctly - it feels like a really long time ago now. And worked my way up to becoming a contract lobbyist in 2009 and 2010. And I represented a few groups and organizations that I didn't always see eye to eye on, and it was a little more difficult to work. So I took a break from politics for a few years, got my master's and came back - in environmental sustainable management - figuring out that really the environment and land use is where my passion lies, just generally. And I got lucky enough to have some friends who worked in and around Futurewise and helped connect me to, at the time, Hilary Franz, who hired me on as the State Policy Director in 2015 - early 2015, late 2014. And really, I have been working on land use, transportation, housing issues since then. And it all really, like I said, stems from 10 years of searching about what I cared about before I fell into the lap of Futurewise. And it's been really exciting to see the organization continue to grow and being able to continue to work on a host of issues that kind of change every year on the land use realm, because there's a lot to do in that space. So yeah, just a long time of slowly working my way into the land use and transportation realm. And now I'm lucky enough to continue to do it.

[00:04:54] Crystal Fincher: Excellent. So like you said, there's so much to do. But there have been some headline issues over the past couple years, culminating with this last session - middle housing, transit oriented development, the GMA climate bill. Starting with middle housing and the coalition - getting that together - the multi-session effort that it took to pass it, but resulting in passage. What was that process like? And why is this so important?

[00:05:21] Bryce Yadon: Yeah, I'll start off with that. It was a multi-year thing, and I do want to mention that there was a couple of different priorities moving in tandem throughout the last few sessions. Representative Bateman, Representative Macri, and others had been working on middle housing for a number of years before Futurewise got involved. We always knew we would eventually be able to really help. But a few years ago, what we started off with was what was called House Bill 1220, which was an update to the housing element of the Growth Management Act. And the reason why that is important is it set the stage for us to take on these larger issues, such as middle housing and TOD. And what that update did was required local jurisdictions to plan differently for housing types. It also required the state to start addressing and issuing housing targets that are a little more specific than they used to be. They used to just be general - you should be allowing this many units. Now we're more in the detailed units. And so from a Futurewise perspective, it started back in 2020 with the introduction of that bill and worked forward. And we had built a small coalition on updating the housing requirements under that - knowing that in 2024, the vast majority of local jurisdictions are going to be updating their comprehensive plan required by law - where all these planning documents come together to facilitate access to housing, hopefully.

So that was - from a Futurewise perspective - that was our first kind of go at trying to figure out what was the preliminary step to take. And then what it allowed us to do then is look at how do local jurisdictions implement this new law? What are the opportunities that Futurewise and the state need to give them to really fully embrace income levels, housing at all income levels, affordable housing, and those important things. And so when we were able to team up with Representative Bateman, she had already built a small coalition that was pretty strong. But over the course of about six months, myself, Futurewise, Marcella teamed up with a very large coalition that cut across areas that normally don't - we had business, we had realtors, we had environmental organizations, we had labor all teamed up, because there's one thing that everybody needs, which is housing. And I think that was a big deal to kind of restructure what the coalition looked like going into the 2023 session. And I think that one of the best and interesting parts about that, when we look at the breadth of knowledge within that coalition - like I said, we had folks - we had realtors who understand what people are looking for in housing these days and what they want to market to folks. We have builders that are seeing where they're getting hangups in where and how they can build. You have environmental organizations like Futurewise that understood that a lot of the density and outcomes we're looking for to protect the environment are around types of new housing, and it's like middle housing - that take up less space, that provide community and those things. And I think that was one of the key aspects at the end of the day was just the coalition having such knowledge in different aspects that really helped push it over the line.

And again, Representative Bateman and others had worked on it for, I think, three or four years prior to Futurewise stepping in and really helping out. So I want to give a lot of credit to the previous work they did. And then the one other thing that I think is extremely important to realize that our coalition and all the work Marcella and everybody else did - one of the things that we can't substitute is hard work from a member. And there was Representative Bateman who was consistently meeting with her colleagues one-on-one, folks like Representative Macri, Representative Fitzgibbon and others meeting with members one-on-one just about this specific bill to make sure that we were addressing policy concerns throughout the whole thing. So I think that was the key culmination for us is - it was a four-year period, there was two different tracks we were taking, and then they lined up at the right time. And again, we think this is one of the policy implementation bills for House Bill 1220 that we passed a number of years ago.

[00:09:27] Crystal Fincher: Got it. Marcella, Bryce covered a little bit about the coalition with this - and it was a broad and varied coalition, but a coalition that even within the housing space didn't agree on all issues - and were working together on some bills this past session, were working in opposition on other bills this session. What did it take, and what was the process of pulling this coalition together and keeping it together throughout this session, throughout the changes in the bill? Can you walk us through what that was like?

[00:09:55] Marcella Buser: Yeah, so I can walk you through the grassroots side of the coalition - because how Bryce and I work together - Bryce is on the inside, working to create a policy that most people can get behind. And then I'm working on the outside with the rest of the state, making sure that we have the people power needed to get these bills over the finish line. So like I said, I started last fall - my very first day on staff was joining one of these coalition meetings and seeing all the different players in the room. My priority was coordinating the grassroots side of the coalition, so bringing together local groups that really cared about these issues, environmental groups, racial justice groups, everyone that had different types of reach and diversity in their interests. I would say how much we cared about missing middle and seeing this bill over the finish line united us way more than any of our differences could have separated us. Honestly, one of the larger challenges, rather than working on these other issues, was just balancing everyone's strengths. Like a local group might have expertise in a certain area but might not know about the rest of the state, whereas a comms team might have really great publications but not a large membership base to reach out to. So I think that was more - the bigger challenge is balancing that and through having really open and honest conversations every week in the meeting that I coordinated, we were able to figure out - okay, where can everyone make an impact? What makes sense for everyone? And how can we keep this bill moving?

[00:11:33] Crystal Fincher: So what comes next? What does implementation look like for this? And what can people in their communities expect to see as a result?

[00:11:42] Bryce Yadon: That's a really good question. Funny enough, we've been having both internal conversations as well as a few conversations with people in the governor's office and the Department of Commerce. So the immediate next step is going to be that the Department of Commerce is going to start a rulemaking process for implementation at the local level. We have a phased approach to this piece of legislation, so the four central Puget Sound counties - so King, Kitsap, Pierce, and Snohomish - have to update their development regulations and implement this piece of legislation by June of 2025, because it's due six months after the comprehensive plan. This gives us a two-year time window to assist local jurisdictions in implementation. So the first thing that we're going to probably start seeing is the Department of Commerce both from a small group area - small groups - calling people in to get feedback and ideas on how this should be implemented, what should the regulations and sideboards should be for implementation of this bill. We're also going to see - because the rulemaking process is public - we're also going to be seeing opportunities for the general public to provide feedback to the Department of Commerce through hearings and other things over the next six months to a year.

[00:13:01] Crystal Fincher: And pausing right here, what does it mean - what kinds of things are being taken up and handled in rulemaking? What is going to be determined there?

[00:13:08] Bryce Yadon: Yeah, that's a good question. So things such as what does the definition of substantially similar to development regulations that apply to single-family homes. So things that we didn't define very well that are going to be required. So again, one of them was you can't have any more restrictive requirements than you have on a single-family zone. So those will be things like matching up your setbacks and making sure that it's clear that we have a - you're either following the law, or not. So I think some of those rules will be very clear - that we think they're clear in the law, but we need to make sure they're there. I also think we'll also see things that will be able to be just adopted out of the rules to a local city's ordinance. And so things, like I said, what do setbacks look like for middle housing comparatively to other types? Or what does open space look like between courtyard apartments - how much is open space needed to create a courtyard apartment situation? What should the average heights, or what could be heights, that would facilitate different unit sizes for each development? What does substantially similar for affordable housing look like? 'cause we do have affordable housing incentives built into the bill. So those are some of the things. But I think it's going to be imperative of us all to think about how broad and how flexible can we make sure that this is, that the rulemaking is so local jurisdictions can really facilitate the development of these housing types. And I think that's one of the things that we want to make sure is going to occur at the end of the day. So those are some of the things - obviously, I'm probably missing a whole host of them because it's such a big piece of legislation and we haven't done this much extensive rulemaking on a bill in a while - like this, I should say, let alone on housing at the state level in a long time.

And then - how's it going to impact the local area after we get through that? Second, you're going to see local jurisdictions taking up public hearings, opportunities to engage. There's multiple pathways for local jurisdictions to comply with the law. There's one that says - you have to upzone 75% of your single-family homes and you can protect 25%. But there's a lot of stipulations within that, so making sure we have folks on the ground that are paying attention to high risk of displacement areas, other areas that might have been formerly redlined. So we obviously need people at the local level to be engaged at the planning process. It also provides folks an opportunity to give feedback on development regulations. Again, another kind of rehash of setbacks, heights, other requirements that might go along with this.

And then in reality, what do I think is going to look like on the ground in four or five years when we start seeing more of these develop is - more community and more homes for people. I live in a townhome - there's 11 units that is on two formerly single-family homes. And I've got a great community - I know my neighbors, I talk to them, we garden together out front - which is really exciting. So what I think we're going to see is just - is more housing options, maybe not always affordable for 80% and below, but more affordable than the single-family home that it replaced, which is really providing housing opportunity. So fits within the character of the neighborhood - the houses next to me look like they belong there and my house looks like it belongs here. And I'm right next to two-story apartment building that's next door to me as well, so it's a really diverse community and it's really exciting to see. So that's what we expect to see on the ground - is more people getting housing, more community being built, and facilitating a walkable environment that really creates and thrives in that community-based planning process.

[00:16:54] Crystal Fincher: Yeah, thank you for going into detail on what rulemaking means. I think that's a part of the process that is not known to as many people as the legislative process. And so much is determined about the implementation with those - whether it's this legislation or any piece of legislation - it's so important to continue engaging and following through rulemaking. I've explained it before - it's like the difference - the law that was passed is like a script on paper and the rulemaking is what fills in all of those details to actually make it a movie. There's so much more than the words on the paper in the ways that they're interpreted, in the ways that they can manifest in reality. And so making all of those decisions about - What exactly does that definition mean? What does that look like in real life? - makes a big difference. So whether it's this or any piece of legislation, really - if you've been engaged in the fight to get it passed, please continue to stay involved. Or if you want to get involved for the first time, do it within this rulemaking period because it does impact how this will turn out in real life.

Marcella, what was it about this that brought so many people to the coalition? What were some of the concerns that you had to overcome to continue to build this coalition? And what are you most excited to see as a result of this passing?

[00:18:09] Marcella Buser: Yeah, I think so many people were brought to this coalition because regardless of what you care about, there is a reason why missing middle affects you in a positive way. So talking with folks that care about climate change and care about having more walkable communities - great, missing middle is a solution for you. Folks that care about dismantling systemic racism - great, missing middle is for you. I think the biggest barrier that we faced with this bill on the ground was less with the coalition and more with local opposition. So I'm thinking in particular about Edmonds. At the start of session, we saw a lot of letters to the editor against missing middle coming out of Edmonds, and eventually started seeing lawn signs and flyers - all of this work against missing middle. And we learned that this was coming from a group called ACE, or Alliance for Citizens of Edmonds, and they are an organized group that's been around since 2004. And part of their mission is, and I quote "preserving the character of Edmonds." So we knew that if we were going to get this bill passed, but - not just passed, get this implemented - we needed to have a very local and strategic approach to this.

So we started working with our partners in Edmonds. We got connected with CARE, Coalition for Accessible and Resilient Edmonds, and started hosting regional meetings working to get more folks in the area involved. And we saw our engagement double - partially because we were there doing the work we needed to turn these folks out, but also because folks were seeing these lawn signs and thinking - You know, I don't really agree with that. I think I'm on the other side of this. And it ended up being successful. We got all of the representatives and the senators in that district to vote Yes on missing middle. But this was a big lesson learned - that if we want to keep passing zoning reform in the future and if we want to be implementing missing middle, we need to make sure that we're building these massive, stronger bases in these local, typically wealthier, smaller communities and making sure that we have the support needed to keep this work up. So I think that was one of the biggest struggles. And so making sure that our coalition wasn't just the folks that work on the statewide level, but we were working with individual smaller groups that work in these local communities - like Edmonds, Bellevue, Mercer Island, Bainbridge - and making sure that they were a part of this larger movement.

[00:20:45] Crystal Fincher: Absolutely. And what - looking forward into another bill that you were working on - the transit oriented development bill, where does that stand? And where is it going?

[00:20:57] Bryce Yadon: That's a good question. So just in terms of actual process real quick, it will go back to - I believe it goes back to the Senate. So it'll still be introduced next year, goes back to the last place that it passed, which would be - we have different steps, so it'll go back to the Senate.

[00:21:12] Crystal Fincher: And what would it do? What would that bill accomplish?

[00:21:15] Bryce Yadon: So the bill - it is a complement to the middle housing bill. So the middle housing bill obviously dealt with areas - just your entire city, generally speaking. What TOD, Transit Oriented Development Bill, did was really increase housing availability around our transit investments. So things like light rail, frequent transit service, or bus rapid transit, thinking about - again, King County has the Rapid Ride line, so it would increase development capacity at all the stops along the Rapid Ride line. They have Swift up in Snohomish County. Spokane is getting a number of bus rapid transit-type lines. So really what it would have done is taken areas - many of the bus lines go through a whole host of different zoning types - they go through commercial, they go through multifamily, and they also go through single-family. And what this was saying is the Legislature invested around $3.7 billion into bus transit in 2022 - let's leverage that to create housing opportunity around those things so people don't have to drive - thinking about how we implement our climate plans and meeting our goals for vehicle miles traveled that we have in state law.

So it would have allowed, within a quarter mile of bus rapid transit, a substantial increase in what they call floor area ratio or FAR. FAR is a wonky term to look at your lot size and how much building capacity you can have on top of it. I think most of us would defer to like heights - so we normally see 40-foot heights or 60-foot heights. This does it based off of - how many square feet can you build per lot, depending on the size and location. But I'm going to defer back to like heights and density just because I think it's easier to understand, and I think that's the direction we'll probably inevitably see the bill go because people can envision it better. So functionally it would have allowed something - instead of two stories, it would have allowed something like five stories or six stories and that typically is wood frame construction over concrete that's the cheapest to build when you start talking about multifamily. And then around light rail, it would have done the steel and concrete type of construction, which can be upwards of 70, 80 to 150 feet or any skyscraper in Seattle, Bellevue, Tacoma, Everett - those types of buildings - around light rail.

So it would have really increased the development capacity - and instead of thinking of it as a station area, you would think of it more as a transit line. So you would have whole sections following a bus that could be upzoned that might be currently single-family or low-rise development and really increase the capacity. So I think that was fundamentally what the bill did at the end of the day. And I think there was a lot of confusion, even among members and the lobbying team, as I mentioned - FAR and other requirements. So I think there has to be some peel back and look at how can we best talk about it and represent and show what the bill will do. I think that was one of the positives of missing middle - we were able to provide photos and built environment that showed what middle housing is. I think we were having a hard time providing that for transit oriented development because it was a different way to look at how we develop. I think there's three or four cities that use FAR and the rest use height, and we got to probably move back towards that way to get people to see it better.

[00:24:44] Crystal Fincher: And Marcella - when it comes to the GMA climate bill, why was that so important to pass and what impact will it have moving forward?

[00:24:54] Marcella Buser: Yeah, I can't speak on the exact policy, but this bill is huge. Futurewise has been working on this for the past three years and this is going to change the way that we are looking at how we develop our cities. Before this bill, cities didn't need to plan around climate change, but now we are taking that into consideration - and we know that this is one of the top issues that people in our state care about and are looking to see action on. It's great being in Washington - we are one of the climate change leaders in the country, if not the leader, in climate change action - but there's always more that needs to be done.

[00:25:34] Crystal Fincher: Looking at the specifics and through the eyes of a layperson, through the eyes of someone just in the public - what would they expect to see differently and what would it do?

[00:25:45] Bryce Yadon: I'll say a couple of things, and I know that Marcella heard a lot of on the ground conversations - because again, I think one thing that we did well this year was take the stories of people on the ground and turn them into our key talking points and other things. One of the things that we're probably going to see is a better thought process on what does climate resiliency look like for flooding. We know that we're going to see increased storms, we're going to see sea level rise - and sea level rise will impact, obviously, the whole Puget Sound and the coastal areas. So we're going to see better and more thoughtful development regulations and development patterns within those flood zones. We've had a law for a long time that says - You really shouldn't be building in them. But we're also seeing a larger flood zone - they're increasing as time goes on because these are more severe. So I think the first thing we'll probably see is not immediate, but more thoughtful development regulations, exit patterns, access away from areas that are eventually going to be hit with floods and other things. I think another thing that we're going to see - thinking of, say, eastern Washington right away - is the planning and understanding of where development patterns occur and likelihood of wildfires. We've all seen the devastation in California and in some of the small towns in Oregon over the last few years with devastating impacts to people's homes and properties and livelihoods lost. And I think Washington has typically done a good job at trying to create this buffer between development areas and areas that are susceptible to wildfires, but we're going to see more action in that area. And then we're also going to see better plans to prevent wildfires from expanding into these communities. So it might not be immediate on the ground impacts, but it's one of those things.

And I think the second thing I want to mention, within the context of this, is with the GMA climate bill, we added - we made a change to how local jurisdictions plan for travel and transportation - requires vehicle miles traveled to be reduced over time. But in addition to that, it said - when you're doing your transportation plan, you have to plan for a multimodal environment. That means not only are you planning for vehicle traffic on roadways, but you should be planning for - What does transit look like within corridors? What does bike facilities look like in corridors? And what does pedestrian facilities look like in corridors? We know cities have a lack of pedestrian access - there's whole sections of all of our major cities that don't have access to sidewalks. And this is going to put those front and centered and say - You can't only invest in moving vehicles quickly. What you have to do is you have to invest in - safety is the number one priority for all users on the roadway. And you have to figure out how you're going to be investing in all modes of transportation instead of one. So I think what we're probably going to see immediately is a reworking of our transportation system, hopefully - and I think that'll be the most impactful. Hopefully we'll see speeds come down, vehicle crashes reduced, we'll see safety increase, we'll see access to crosswalks and pedestrian facilities that - again, a lot of jurisdictions just haven't invested in because their number one priority has been the speed of a vehicle to get through one singular intersection. So I think in the short term, that's probably going to be one of the major things we're going to see right away, within the context of what the immediate impacts are going to be, which is really exciting - something that we've been working on with partners for years.

[00:29:12] Crystal Fincher: It is really exciting. And so necessary, especially through our - basically a mobility safety crisis that we are in the middle of - and hopefully people will be taking action to address that soon. So now that we're post-session doing this kind of evaluation of everything that happened and looking forward - Marcella, what is necessary in the next year, leading up to this next session, locally and in conjunction with state legislators to pass these bills and continued action as needed? What's needed to bring the coalition together around the continued action to make sure that we can continue moving forward?

[00:29:51] Marcella Buser: Yeah, there's a lot that's needed. I think working through session - some of the best organizing that will set a campaign up for success happens before legislators are even back in Olympia. So really our campaign for next year is already starting now. It takes a lot of effort working in local communities and statewide, finding the volunteers that care about these issues that - again, maybe don't know how to get involved. Or maybe they really care about climate change and housing, but don't even know what land use is - they've never even heard the phrase zoning before. So making sure that we are reaching as many of those folks as possible, getting them involved, teaching them that they can be a part of the solution, and making their voice heard. And then - yeah, working with the coalition - took some time off, recovered from session, but now getting back to working with these groups, finding that common ground of - Okay, maybe we aren't working on missing middle or something else, but where do our interests coincide? And not only working with our past partners, but making sure that we are identifying new groups that want to get involved, making sure that our coalition is very diverse - that we are representing local groups and not just the Seattle area, but we are getting statewide. So there's a lot of work to do if we want to be building up the support that we need to be a really robust campaign, starting in January when bills are getting introduced.

[00:31:19] Crystal Fincher: And if people are interested in joining this effort and getting involved, who can they contact and how can they find out more information?

[00:31:27] Marcella Buser: Definitely get in touch with us. If you go to our website, we have ways - you can fill out a volunteer form and I'll get in touch with you to tell you more. There is a variety of ways for people to get involved. So even if you're hearing this and you're like - I don't have a ton of time for that, but I'm interested - during session, we send out weekly action alerts that take five minutes to email your legislators to vote Yes, or to sign-in Pro for hearings for bills. That's huge - that goes a long way. But we also have great opportunities for folks to get involved if you do have more time - if you want to volunteer, take on leadership, help run things like in-person lobby days. But also even if you don't have any time at all, you can always donate - and that always goes a long way with our campaigns - making sure that we have the resources needed to stay in this fight for as long as it takes to win.

[00:32:20] Crystal Fincher: Thank you so much, Bryce and Marcella, for joining us today and helping to inform. Any parting words that you have, Bryce?

[00:32:27] Bryce Yadon: Just thank you for your time and thanks for everybody's engagement in the last legislative session. And I just want to echo what Marcella said, which is - if you're interested, there's millions of ways, both from your local city all up to the state, and happy to help anybody who's excited to do that.

[00:32:44] Crystal Fincher: All right. Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:32:46] Bryce Yadon: Thank you.

[00:32:47] Marcella Buser: Thanks.

[00:32:47] Crystal Fincher: Thank you for listening to Hacks & Wonks, which is co-produced by Shannon Cheng and Bryce Cannatelli. You can follow Hacks & Wonks on Twitter @HacksWonks. You can catch Hacks & Wonks on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts - just type "Hacks and Wonks" into the search bar. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the full versions of our Friday almost-live shows and our midweek show delivered to your podcast feed. If you like us, leave a review wherever you listen. You can also get a full transcript of this episode and links to the resources referenced in the show at and in the episode notes.

Thanks for tuning in - talk to you next time.